puppetmaker (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
puppetmaker) wrote2005-12-08 07:53 am
puppetmaker) wrote2005-12-08 07:53 am
Prost!
I watched South Park last night. Having seen the episode, I am wondering of Parker and Stone watch Penn & Tellers: B*lls**t since the story followed along the lines of one of their shows about 12 step programs. They both commented on the idea that some have declared alcoholism as a disease. I'm sorry but cancer is a disease, even syphilis is a disease but alcohol is a choice. You can "cure" yourself by not drinking which is will power and self-control. If you can get rid of cancer with self-control I know some scientists who want to talk to you. Some people have little or no self-control and need structure to over come their problem. That is how I think 12 step programs work. I am not saying that for some they don't work. I'm objecting to calling addiction to anything (Video Games, drugs, gambling, a TV show actor) a disease.
I have worked with a lot of people in my time at various jobs. I have had to deal with functional alcoholics and drug addicts with possibly some video game junkies thrown in for good measure. For the majority I have found that they really don't take personal responsibility for their actions (It's not their fault that they had a four martini lunch, it was the Mayor's[This really was an excuse I was given when someone showed up plastered]) and there is a sense of self-loathing. They don't like themselves very much so they drink to feel better. I am sure there are other reasons as well but it comes down to the fact that they have a choice to pick up that next drink or not. I have a friend who has never had a drop of alcohol in his life. It is a conscious choice on his part since he watched a good part of his family and extended family drink themselves to death. He knows himself well enough to know that if he started he might not stop so he has chosen not to even start. I am very proud of him for doing so. Yes, I do imbibe in alcohol, Yes, I have imbibed to excess from time to time but I have made the choices that put me in that state and I have made the choice not to find myself in that state again. Self-control is hard especially at an open bar but everyone can do it if they want to.
We may be getting another dusting of snow. Maybe an inch or so at most which will then turn to cold rain as the sun comes up. This time it will stick since we have been in a deep freeze since the last storm when through. I plan to use my anti-snow juju and stock up on things we need so that the storm will not come. Laugh if you will but we went from dire predictions of 5 to 12 inches to 3 to 5 to 1 to 3 after I did this on Monday so I am going to do it again today.
The living room, dining room, and kitchen are clean. Today I can concentrate on my back log of e-mail in my various accounts and getting some materials together for my next project along with running a few other errands that need running.
I am grateful for my parents teaching me about how to handle alcohol by both word and example.
I have worked with a lot of people in my time at various jobs. I have had to deal with functional alcoholics and drug addicts with possibly some video game junkies thrown in for good measure. For the majority I have found that they really don't take personal responsibility for their actions (It's not their fault that they had a four martini lunch, it was the Mayor's[This really was an excuse I was given when someone showed up plastered]) and there is a sense of self-loathing. They don't like themselves very much so they drink to feel better. I am sure there are other reasons as well but it comes down to the fact that they have a choice to pick up that next drink or not. I have a friend who has never had a drop of alcohol in his life. It is a conscious choice on his part since he watched a good part of his family and extended family drink themselves to death. He knows himself well enough to know that if he started he might not stop so he has chosen not to even start. I am very proud of him for doing so. Yes, I do imbibe in alcohol, Yes, I have imbibed to excess from time to time but I have made the choices that put me in that state and I have made the choice not to find myself in that state again. Self-control is hard especially at an open bar but everyone can do it if they want to.
We may be getting another dusting of snow. Maybe an inch or so at most which will then turn to cold rain as the sun comes up. This time it will stick since we have been in a deep freeze since the last storm when through. I plan to use my anti-snow juju and stock up on things we need so that the storm will not come. Laugh if you will but we went from dire predictions of 5 to 12 inches to 3 to 5 to 1 to 3 after I did this on Monday so I am going to do it again today.
The living room, dining room, and kitchen are clean. Today I can concentrate on my back log of e-mail in my various accounts and getting some materials together for my next project along with running a few other errands that need running.
I am grateful for my parents teaching me about how to handle alcohol by both word and example.
no subject
If alcoholism and addiction is just a choice and willpower, then when you are depressed you should be able to pull yourself out of it by willpower as well. Just cheer up.
I find these attitudes absolutely jaw-dropping stupid.
It may not be a disease like cancer or AIDS, but there are mental diseases too, ones that affect the entire being, like MPD or depression. Addiction is one of those, and there is a physical component as well.
There is a screaming need in the body, a physical reaction at some point. It is torture to have a portion of your brain or body saying all the time "Feed me" and riding you. It's like food addiction, so these people should just stop eating. Simple enough.
I understand what you are saying, but until you have lived with the hell of drug or alcohol addiction or chronic depression, or studied living cases and worked with these people, I would respectfully suggest that comments be refrained from being made.
no subject
We are going to just have to agree that we disagree about a number of forms of addiction. Doesn't mean I think any less of you for your POV if anything I give you more points for expressing it.
no subject
no subject
eh, so wordy
I don't know whether addiction is a disase or not, I suspect that it doesn't really matter what it is. The important thing is treating it, and labeling it as a disease takes away the moral stigma associated with addiction. When addiction is framed in terms of lack of self control it implies that any addict should be able to just stop doing it- the answer seems so simple! But, a lack of self control also, I think, implies that the addict is a morally bad person. When addiction is defined as a disase the immoral component is bleached out and this makes for less shame and blame.
My opinion is that 12 steps work because they people whom they work for are generally ready for a change. My opinion is also that 12 step groups are vastly misunderstood by the majority of the general population. 12 step groups provide a place to get feedback and find out what works, also importatn is that they provide a place for broadening one's social base of support, they are a place where people understand and don't tell you "well why don't you just stop." There is no stopping. Even before the first drug was evern ingested the addiction was growing in the brain, and it continues to exist and manifest itself in other ways one abstinence occurs.
To compare your experience with alcohol to that of an alcoholic's is like comparing bananas to steak, you can't extrapolate from one to the other.
I think my favorite clinical book on addiction is called "Addiction as an Attachment Disorder". I also like the memoir by Augusten Burroughs called "Dry". The Basic Text by Narcotics Anonymous is also very helpful in understanding the disease concept of addiction. Either way, I'm wondering what you think about the idea that for the alcoholic and addict the option to 'just quit using willpower' doesn't really exist. Does that sound crazy? Recovery language takes words and gives them new meanings so sometimes they don't seem to make sense. I'm so immersed in recovery related stuff that it seems pretty normal to me these days, but I'll be the first to admit that my social circles aren't exactly 'normal'.
Re: eh, so wordy
I am sure that is the case for some or most. I think what yanks my chain is calling it a disease because for me (YMMV) it does not follow the webster definition of a disease. Of course this is coming from the daughter of a woman who taught clinical nursing for more years than I care count. I do agree that there are mental illnesses associated with a lot of addiction and alcoholism and those need to be attended to before the person can get better on any level. Gawds knows how many times I have been off and on various anti-depressant medications for the past 30 years. Currently off and have been since I hooked up with my husband and had a kid but then that is me and I know my case is different than the next persons.
To clarify what set me off. The South Park episode was about one of the characters Dad's getting a DUI for drinking while driving. He is forced to go to an AA meeting which informs him he has a disease and is going to die. Since he doesn't believe in a higher power he assumes he can;t get better and must drink more since he has a disease. This gets more and more absurd and involves a bleeding statue and the Pope before the kid can get his dad to see that he (the dad) is a moderate drinker and he doesn't need to drink like a fish to feed his disease and he can enjoy a few beers without feeling guilty.
You must know I admire how you have pulled your life together and pushed for a better life for yourself. You rawk in my books.
Re: eh, so wordy
J and I were talking about something similar the other day, how some " NA Nazi's" are all like "substance consumption is evil, it should all be illegal, never be around people who drink" and we both agree that lots of people who drink/use aren't addicts and it's never a problem, so just leave well enough alone. I don't care for fundamentalists of any persuasion, personally.